I'm no immunologist, but the whole "presence of antibodies" thing seems silly to me.
There was a study published in Nature early in the pandemic that showed that people with exposure to the original SARS had T-cell immunity based on a common N protein some 17 years later.
If you have long lasting T cell immunity that can request that the B cells generate anti-bodies when needed, why would the lack of antibodies when not infected be predictive of anything?
Right question and right answer for a critical thinker not an approval process which asks what reaction can we generate that is measurable and that becomes the basis for "efficacy" proof.
JJ Couey explores this in ongoing deep detail w fab teaching skills & immuno-mythology!
Really enjoyed this first instalment of "Let's Be Clear"! Jonathan Jay Couey is phenomenal, and we share a lot of his work. He's finally been released from Twitter jail, for whatever that's worth :)
How fantabulous he's free to tweet.. wow, whew & my goodness he will tear it up.. I flippin adore JJ so big time for that brain & heart combo behind passion to teach.. he's a true gem! My own Twitter ban is in year three but watching the powerhouse voices reappear is the best omen hinting eventually they'll get to me! :~)
Hi Joomi, very nice summary as always. I had not seen the studies on response and recovery in B cell depleted individuals. Very interesting. Do you have plans to dive into detail on mucosal immune response (eg IgA) as immune correlates vs IgG subclasses? As a general statement, it has driven me crazy that the discussion about immune correlates of protection, disease severity etc, has been dumbed down to “you need a high IgG titer or you are not protected”. The organization and magnitude of the cell mediated response appears much more predictive of disease outcomes and protection against serious disease. Thank you for the great work sand looking forward to the next articles!
In 1908, Elie Metchnikoff and Paul Ehrlich both received the nobel price for their works on immunology. Metchnikoff discovered phagocytosis and innate immunity. Ehrlich discovered antibody formation (what he called the "magic bullet").
Later, when the pharma industry discovered that they can make much more money with following Ehrlich, they completely forgot Metchnikoff
From what I understand, you don't get B-cell memory formation without being triggered by Tcells through "linked recognition "which shows that Tcell activation comes generally BEFORE Bcell activation. Also, only NK cells and Tcells are able to identify non-self proteins displayed on the surface of infected cells (on MHC receptors). During initial infection these are non-structural proteins and these are highly conserved across viruses. Thus the idea that sars- cov2 was "novel" and there was no background immunity is a stretch, to say the least.
"Class switch towards non-inflammatory, spike-specific IgG4 antibodies after repeated SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination"
Not all IgG are the same. There are four classes. And the IgG4 have recently been shown to be involved in turbo charging cancer growth because IgG4 can interact with IgG1.
Then this might be interesting for you as well... maybe you can get in contact with him and exchange info?
The full title is this: "The history of failed HIV vaccine trials confirms that overvaccination causes class-switching towards non-inflammatory IgG4 antibodies, reducing the effectiveness of the immune response"
Nice approach, Joomi. So then next up could be risk for patients already getting Campath/alemtuzumab, which depletes both B and T lymphocytes. As always, nothing is simple; but at least here's a very small study, 2020, showing that subjects weren't decimated: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211034820303734
"Potential COVID-19 infection in patients with severe multiple sclerosis treated with alemtuzumab"
Their lowest abs Lymphs were <=600 (with ~normal range 1000 to 4800).
"Conclusions
Our data suggest that patients receiving alemtuzumab showed very mild symptoms of COVID-19. "
When people say "PCR test" when looking for RNA viruses they generally mean RT-PCR. The "RT" stands for reverse transcription which is just a step to convert the RNA to DNA before going about with the PCR steps. Anyway, I'm hoping to talk more about the PCR tests more in general so stay tuned...
I think I remember reading similar material from sources such as WDDTY many years ago, indicating that immune compromised people can survive viral infections even as you say, without antibodies. It’s perhaps also more correct to talk about “immune systems”, because there are other mechanisms involving in immunity beyond antibodies.
What tends to determine the severity of symptoms is the nature of response to the infection a person develops. Viral replication itself does not on its own necessarily produce dangerous symptoms anymore than replication in normal cells, the bodies ability to manage the response moderate’s symptoms.
Isn’t a Corona, basically an undetectable “common cold”?
With all this research, as a layperson when all is said and done…
Still sounds like “well, we are close, but still don’t know anything?” Seems the whole idea…. This “thing “ is attached to something common and insidious… it’s difficult to track…
Corona’s seem common, and difficult to track…
It seems something bad has been attached to the Common Corona…(one one bad actor) and results may be bad for some, not others (as is the case with Corona/common cold) yet the synthetic bad actor has been attached and is doing its stuff…
I'm no immunologist, but the whole "presence of antibodies" thing seems silly to me.
There was a study published in Nature early in the pandemic that showed that people with exposure to the original SARS had T-cell immunity based on a common N protein some 17 years later.
If you have long lasting T cell immunity that can request that the B cells generate anti-bodies when needed, why would the lack of antibodies when not infected be predictive of anything?
Right question and right answer for a critical thinker not an approval process which asks what reaction can we generate that is measurable and that becomes the basis for "efficacy" proof.
JJ Couey explores this in ongoing deep detail w fab teaching skills & immuno-mythology!
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1681867804
Really enjoyed this first instalment of "Let's Be Clear"! Jonathan Jay Couey is phenomenal, and we share a lot of his work. He's finally been released from Twitter jail, for whatever that's worth :)
How fantabulous he's free to tweet.. wow, whew & my goodness he will tear it up.. I flippin adore JJ so big time for that brain & heart combo behind passion to teach.. he's a true gem! My own Twitter ban is in year three but watching the powerhouse voices reappear is the best omen hinting eventually they'll get to me! :~)
"Shhh, antibodies are what we can sell!"
Hi Joomi, very nice summary as always. I had not seen the studies on response and recovery in B cell depleted individuals. Very interesting. Do you have plans to dive into detail on mucosal immune response (eg IgA) as immune correlates vs IgG subclasses? As a general statement, it has driven me crazy that the discussion about immune correlates of protection, disease severity etc, has been dumbed down to “you need a high IgG titer or you are not protected”. The organization and magnitude of the cell mediated response appears much more predictive of disease outcomes and protection against serious disease. Thank you for the great work sand looking forward to the next articles!
Yes, hoping to discuss this next...
Most helpful and educational to a lay person, such as myself.
Will Part 2 be discussing the role of the different IgG's 3 and 4?
Covered here: https://igorchudov.substack.com/p/immune-tolerance-igg4-class-switch
That probably won't be in part 2 but I was planning on talking about that more eventually
Good stuff! Lay people like me are reading about 5G and nanobots that might need an EMP event to neutralize!
Onwards!
In 1908, Elie Metchnikoff and Paul Ehrlich both received the nobel price for their works on immunology. Metchnikoff discovered phagocytosis and innate immunity. Ehrlich discovered antibody formation (what he called the "magic bullet").
Later, when the pharma industry discovered that they can make much more money with following Ehrlich, they completely forgot Metchnikoff
From what I understand, you don't get B-cell memory formation without being triggered by Tcells through "linked recognition "which shows that Tcell activation comes generally BEFORE Bcell activation. Also, only NK cells and Tcells are able to identify non-self proteins displayed on the surface of infected cells (on MHC receptors). During initial infection these are non-structural proteins and these are highly conserved across viruses. Thus the idea that sars- cov2 was "novel" and there was no background immunity is a stretch, to say the least.
Exactly...everyone who has had a cold has some Tcell familiarity with coronavirus family.
I think you should also look into this study: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.ade2798
"Class switch towards non-inflammatory, spike-specific IgG4 antibodies after repeated SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination"
Not all IgG are the same. There are four classes. And the IgG4 have recently been shown to be involved in turbo charging cancer growth because IgG4 can interact with IgG1.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32819973/ "An immune evasion mechanism with IgG4 playing an essential role in cancer and implication for immunotherapy"
Read this as a potential example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8656165/ "Rapid Progression of Angioimmunoblastic T Cell Lymphoma Following BNT162b2 mRNA Vaccine Booster Shot: A Case Report"
I will talk about those results in another article (probably not part 2 though).
And here is another one!
https://doorlesscarp953.substack.com/p/class-switching-to-igg4-lessons-learned#%C2%A7conclusions
Then this might be interesting for you as well... maybe you can get in contact with him and exchange info?
The full title is this: "The history of failed HIV vaccine trials confirms that overvaccination causes class-switching towards non-inflammatory IgG4 antibodies, reducing the effectiveness of the immune response"
https://www.eugyppius.com/p/the-history-of-failed-hiv-vaccine
It is sadly not free to read.
♥️🙏
Nice approach, Joomi. So then next up could be risk for patients already getting Campath/alemtuzumab, which depletes both B and T lymphocytes. As always, nothing is simple; but at least here's a very small study, 2020, showing that subjects weren't decimated: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211034820303734
"Potential COVID-19 infection in patients with severe multiple sclerosis treated with alemtuzumab"
Their lowest abs Lymphs were <=600 (with ~normal range 1000 to 4800).
"Conclusions
Our data suggest that patients receiving alemtuzumab showed very mild symptoms of COVID-19. "
well you already see some serious backtracking here:
"large randomized clinical trials similar to the initial trials of the currently authorized or licensed vaccines for COVID-19 will be required.”
Marks et al. JAMA commentary from Dec 2022
This is a bit off topic, but I’m curious about why the PCR test is STILL being used as a diagnostic? Is RT-PCR any more useful?
When people say "PCR test" when looking for RNA viruses they generally mean RT-PCR. The "RT" stands for reverse transcription which is just a step to convert the RNA to DNA before going about with the PCR steps. Anyway, I'm hoping to talk more about the PCR tests more in general so stay tuned...
To the vaxaholics, antibodies are like electrolytes ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMHfBobgLSI
I think I remember reading similar material from sources such as WDDTY many years ago, indicating that immune compromised people can survive viral infections even as you say, without antibodies. It’s perhaps also more correct to talk about “immune systems”, because there are other mechanisms involving in immunity beyond antibodies.
What tends to determine the severity of symptoms is the nature of response to the infection a person develops. Viral replication itself does not on its own necessarily produce dangerous symptoms anymore than replication in normal cells, the bodies ability to manage the response moderate’s symptoms.
Isn’t a Corona, basically an undetectable “common cold”?
With all this research, as a layperson when all is said and done…
Still sounds like “well, we are close, but still don’t know anything?” Seems the whole idea…. This “thing “ is attached to something common and insidious… it’s difficult to track…
Corona’s seem common, and difficult to track…
It seems something bad has been attached to the Common Corona…(one one bad actor) and results may be bad for some, not others (as is the case with Corona/common cold) yet the synthetic bad actor has been attached and is doing its stuff…
A
Is everyone following a red herring…”Corona”?
Don’t know much about anything here…
Just wondering…